Wednesday, May 06, 2009

ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE: Biggie and Pac, the best?

From time to time we're going to allow some other heads speak via the blog. Dam is a friend of The Mad Bloggers and dude definitely goes at in on different issues. He'll be featured from time to time on the blog with his thoughts.

We know the following is a controversial statement. Soon as I saw this posted as his FB status I knew cats were going to come for him. I quickly jumped in with, "You know heads are coming for you son! Haha! They about to murder your email. Blow up the cell. They coming son! They coming!" But we strive to post real things from real people. It's a thought provoking statement

From Dam's FB status, "Since we keeping it 100. Can we honestly say in 2009 that Biggie and Pac were the best that ever did it? Biggie to me was decent... clever and witty punchlines, but definitely had fast foward material. Pac was and will always be wack to me. I never liked his music and I felt he was one of the biggest frauds and hypocrites in hip-hop. I never had neither of these cats in my top 5, or even top 10. But that's just me.."

See, told you it was a controversial statement. Other heads quickly joined in and offered names like KRS-One, Kool G Rap and Rakim as the best. And the B.I.G. fans and Pac fans definitely joined in saying dude was crazy not to include them in the top 10 of the best emcees, if not calling them the greatest.


Twenty-five minutes after the original post, Dam responded to folks saying he was just seeking attention with, "Ask anybody who knows me, I don't say shit for attention I say exactly what i feel, people either agree or they don't. I never ever ever ever ever liked Tupac. I was a BIG fan, but in retrospect, he wasn't that great. I can think of many artists who were better than Pac and BIG and still are better. Biggies subject matter was limited. To be honest, I was a backpacker and still am. I like my shit underground. I had major issues with commercial shit back then and I still do today."


Then forty-five minutes after we posted this joint another friend, Ced, joined in on the debate. Dude knows and appreciates good music. I had to update and give you his side.

Ced joined the debate with, "Man I had to stop breathing hard to answer this. Pac actually had a variety of meaningful content. In his early days he was more like an activist poet than a rapper. His lyrics really addressed issues rather than just intricate poetic devices about shallow things. Your friend hasn't said much about who is better than Pac and why. I think your friend should take a class on poetry and storytelling and read the lyrics for me against the world. Some people just aren't smart enough to catch what's being thrown.

Btw... Pun's mechanics are untouchable... Eminem has tried... listen to the Infinite album... and if u notice he still using a lot of rainman shit in his videos and music... its code bro. Kool G Rap's style changed my life... when I first heard Road to the Riches, I listened to it like 27 times in a row. Kane is who got me into poetry in the first place. Rakim had emotion filled content with an emotionless flow.

All that being said... I would like to know WHY dude feels the way he does. because it sounds like he's just talkin to talk. And he must of forgot all the albums before All Eyes on Me. Cause I don't know anyone who can really go toe to toe with him content wise... and he may not have always been consistent but he was real. There is no one realer in the mainstream, period."

Where are you at on this debate? Join in and comment below!

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  1. Anonymous4:55 PM

    Now me, I'm a biggie fan and I like some of Pac stuff. But I think for their time they had the game on smash. Then their life got cut short so we never got to see the progress. In realizing this that's when people start saying they were the best. I think they were good for the time. Who knows what they would've been now. I'm Nas all day though!

  2. Anonymous4:57 PM

    Get ready for your hate mail after that comment...your opinions are your own. While I wasn't a big fan of Frank White he changed the game. Pac is my dude so...however you can't take that away you ain't gotta have them in your top 5 but respect is due.

  3. To Ced, First of all my statements about BIG and Pac were based off of my opinion, this is how I feel. I'm highly educated and I know what poetry is...If you wanna be technical, every Rapper that spits in a booth can be labeled a poet, since they are indeed performing far as Pac being an activist and all that jazz, he wasn't the only one speaking on social issues and he wont be the last, if im not mistaken, Public Enemy has been around for over 20 years, KRS1 has also been around for 20 plus,Big Daddy Kane spoke on social injustices as well, lets not forget about THE COUP, Wu Tang, A Tribe Called Quest, Ed O G and da Bulldogs, KAM, De La, Queen Latifah, Scarface just to name a few. These are all artists who had socially conscious lyrics and activism in their content, to sit around and make Pac seem like he was the creme de la creme is preposterous. Pac only received the recognition he has now, because he is have people trying to dissect his lyrics to find deeper meaning when nothing he said was deep. Maybe it was deep to those fans who didn't read much, or who didn't do their own research on certain things and need to be LEAD as opposed to being leaders....Pac wasn't deep to me. Neither was BIG. You want deep? Listen to Edutainment by KRS1.

  4. I had a similar topic point up on the Antfarm Affiliates site a few months back.
    . . . and before I continue, keep in mind that if someone thinks someone is the best that it is their opinion. . . they aren't "hating" its just what they think.

    One of the things that has made me want to be a musician always is music's ability to leave you stuck in front of the speakers like "Oh shit!" It's very rare when that happens (sometimes its just with a line, sometimes its a whole song that does it) and it effects me deeply when it does. One of those moments came from B.I.G. with "Suicidal Thoughts". I remember being stuck every time I listened to that track, sssshhhheeeeiiit the first time it gave me chills. But B.I.G. didn't have that effect all of the time and most of his few really profound lyrical moments came on Ready To Die. His voice, flow, and choice of beats did wonders for him but he was seriously lacking in the content area.

    With Pac, he had content. And he had some great soulful songs. But I think he suffered from the fact that he made sooooooooo many songs. Alot of them have not stood the test of time. Also, after a while I start to get aggravated with hearing the word "thug". I got the point right away. His interviews, behavior and personality did wonders for him.

    Truthfully, hip-hop has progressed after their deaths. I have had my share of "oh Shit!" moments and have encountered cats with ridiculous content since then. Flow and rhyme patterns have been getting more (and less) complicated. Shows have been getting better and worse. I think if people truly examined the work of these artists they probably would not call them the best or even place them in their top 5. If the influence (be it poitive or negative) they have had is behind their decision then I would vote for a cat that I don't even listen to: Jay-Z, who has had a more prolific and diverse career and influence more of the current crop than either of the aforementioned.

    peace and blessings

    Sketch tha cataclysm.

  5. Definitely respect both Ced and Dam.

    Ced Response via FB:

    No offense to your homey but beginning a statement with how one feels and then slowly changing the tone of the writing as if "feelings" are facts is a little shysty but much respect to the tactic if he was aware he was doing it.

    My only issue is that I am still not hearing a "why."

    Public Enemy, NWA, and many of the like who made their appearance in the 1988-94 era were all about changing things in society with their speech. Pac stood on their shoulders and with his lyrical ability and charismatic personality. ... Read More

    I understand how your homey "feels" but I remember the energy and zeitgeist in the air when Pac dropped his first few albums. I remember the whispers when someone in the industry finally spoke on secret societies. Even though they did Pac in his death like they did Slick Rick when he went to jail. Pac by himself maintained what Public Enemy, KRS1, and the like began. And he gave them props on his album.

    I have no issue with any other rappers your man listed..

    In fact, I have great respect for them all and I agree that they did NOT get the credit they deserved. My issue is that "feelings" could be interpreted as hate. Hate as in "hating."

    This is Tupac we are talking about... not these lyrical pushermen who sold their souls for money.

    I understand what it is like to feel some type of way about the "establishment", especially when the old school "anti-establishment" has become the new "establishment" however... 2pac cared about people... he wasn't perfect but you cannot take that from him. There are other rappers who say they care for people but it is not genuine. That's beyond a reasonable doubt.

    In closing, don't hate Tupac the man for what the industry did. They profited off of his image and manipulated the masses after his death with their own agenda... whoops that last point kinda slipped out.

    Tupac was very talented and his frustration seemed to come from the idea that he was fighting an enemy that only he could see and that most couldn't or didn't want to see.

  6. Anonymous11:38 PM

    from Dam
    Is your question "WHY" as in why I didn't like Tupac? If that's the case I'll tell you why. The hypocritical glorification of Thug Life and then on the next track trying to uplift people with social consciousness. I felt he sent a mixed message to the people. One minute he's telling people to keep your head up and be responsible for your actions, but on the next track he's fucking all types of chicks while on tour and bussin caps at niggaz. Mixed messages...Pac wasn't consistent with what he was tryna put out. His production was shitty as well. I also feel his delivery was basic..Poetic to some, but very basic to me. I guess if I was a misguided youth and I was looking for a hero, Pac would have been that dude. But I was always head strong and a leader so with that said, Pac didn't do it for me.

  7. Anonymous11:39 PM

    from Ced
    Haha, now I see what this is. But Ill put that aside.

    The situation is not about the homey being a head strong leader, the situation is why do you think Tupac was not a good rapper?
    This is a debate that will never end because its based on feelings instead of facts.

    Pac did flip it on people but you knew he cared. All races and faces could relate to Pac, and in the end I FEEL that is what matters. Are your words empty and self righteous and self serving or do you use the rhyme to uplift people? That's what I ask rappers.

    Haha we need more head strong leaders to actually relate to the masses they say they lead.

    Well good convo...real talk... holla black.

  8. Anonymous11:40 PM

    from Dam
    Definitely good convo... I already said it tho, I felt his delivery was basic. I agree we need more head strong leaders....but really tho, when was the last time we had one of those? Malcolm, Martin, Huey P Newton, Geronimo Pratt, etc.